Episode Transcript
[00:00:04] Speaker A: Welcome to start to finish motherhood, a podcast for those thinking or already single mothers by choice. Just looking for practical advice for navigating life's relationships. When you decide to have children on your own, it doesn't mean that you're completely alone. I'm Aisha Jenkins, and I'm partnering with you every step of your journey.
So, hi, everybody. I'm here today with a guest. But first, story time. So some of you may know from some of my previous podcast episodes that I had lost both my parents by the time I was 15. But prior to losing my parents, we had a house, and the house had caught on fire. So all of our childhood photos were lost. And so over the years, we've come across one or two photos here and there from other relatives. But for the most part, the pictures of us when we were younger and with our parents are gone. And the ones that we do have are rare, and they're very cherished and crinkled and have been passed around from sibling to sibling. So, from the time I was 15, being in photos was important and trying to capture family photos. And I am the keeper of a lot of family photos that was important to me. And taking pictures is still an important part of who I am as a parent. So now fast forward to me being a single mother by choice and I'm a solo parent. That means that I am usually the one who is taking the pictures for the most part. And I have to be intentional about getting into the pictures. So while I know it's important to get in the pictures, it still requires work on my part to remember, hey, mama, get in the picture. And so I have to remind myself, because you are the one making sure everybody else looks good. So you are, like, the last one to get ready. Your hair might be a mess. You might have oatmeal on you, the lipstick might be smeared. The kids did something off the wall, and you might not want to get in the picture. But I say I have tried to rewire my brain to get in the picture anyway, because while I might not want to, the kids want you there, and they will be so glad that you did. And so my guest today is a friend in podcast space, in photography space, and this is Carmen. Carmen is a single mother and a professional photographer. And so I'm going to welcome Carmen to the show and ask you to introduce yourself.
[00:02:38] Speaker B: Hi. Thank you so, so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here to talk a little bit about this. I am a solo mother by choice. I live just outside of Detroit, Michigan.
I went to school for photography in Chicago, and it really started out for me as a way to get into concerts for free or to have an activity to do instead of being trapped in conversations socially. So it actually became like a side gig at first. And then I started working out of North Prentice Hospital in Chicago, and I started taking pictures of the newborn babies that were, like, two days old. And then I quickly realized that that wasn't. I'm not a salesy, pushy kind of a person. So I started doing more family sessions and smaller engagement sessions and more intimate settings, going directly to people's homes rather than, like, a studio. And I really just enjoy that kind of work. So I now have an almost three year old, and photos were so much easier to take when he was three months, four months. Now at two, he's a little bit quicker than I am when I'm trying to take photos in a studio setting. So, yeah, we're just going to talk a little bit more about how to get the shot, how to tame the children while you're trying to do this. But it is. It's a task, for sure. It's a lot of fun, though.
[00:04:14] Speaker A: All right, cool, cool, cool. Okay, so I will tell you, and I know we had talked almost a year ago about this episode. So it's been about a year that I've wanted to do this episode, because being in the single mother by choice, we have a lot of events, and at each of the events, like, especially Mother's Day and the holidays, we try to have a photographer on site to make sure that we capture these photos. So it is a running theme in the single mother by choice community. Like, get in the picture and asking people to take pictures of you and your kid when you're at, like, these fun amusement places. And so because I feel so strongly about photos for children, because when I look at the pictures of my parents, the ones that we do have, I'm not looking at the messy hair, I'm not looking at cellulite, the messy makeup. You know, I'm looking for me in those pictures, right? I'm like, oh, these are the parts of me that look like my mom. This is where I get it from and things of that nature. And so I knew since becoming and wanted to become a single mother by choice, I had a vision for how I wanted to parent. And a big part of that was documenting our family life. And so I created a photo book for each of the kids that captured, you know, all of their kind of, like, birth story from the time I got pregnant to the time that they were delivered. So I have stories and milestones for each kid. And, you know, for a while, you will have those photo albums, and the kids are too small to pick them up. But now my kids are nine and four, and they want to read their baby books. They want to see the pictures of them. You know, they're like, I want to see me as a baby. And then along with the kids baby books, I also have family photo albums that I had taken each year since my daughter oldest was born. And so I'm three years behind. I blamed the pandemic, but I'm going to get back on top of it. So all of that to lay the groundwork for my perspective and the SMC community, you know, we want to get in the picture. So from a professional's eye, can you tell us a little bit about the importance of just capturing those messy pictures? Because we think I look a hot mess. I'm not gonna get in the picture. But from your experience, what have you heard and what have you seen from being a professional photographer, the value of having those candid, messy hair photos?
[00:06:48] Speaker B: Well, when you think about it, all of the family photos that do exist, the baby books and all of those things, a very, very small percentage of them are those polished Sears, JCPenney family photos. You know what I mean? It's people sitting around Thanksgiving, it's food all over your face. It's those little bitty moments. So I think that there's a lot of pressure on the. Like, we have to look together, we have to pull it together, and we have to just look nice for this one photo. And we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to get those photos when we're together physically, like, aesthetically, that we miss those little moments when we're messy, which is where the storytelling is.
When I was living in Chicago, I actually missed a family photo with the majority of our cousins and my grandparents on my mom's side. And it's a beautiful photo, but when I think about it, I'm like, oh, man, I'm not in it. I'm not in it, and my brother isn't in it. And after that year, many people were gone. People had passed, then Covid, and then we were just losing people left and right. So I think it's really important to take the messy pictures because that's where the memories are. And then intentionally planned the family photos, like, once a year, just pick a date and get it done. Whether that's going to a studio, asking somebody to come by setting up your iPhone on a tripod or something in your house. It doesn't have to be a big production, but for the memory part, just do it. Don't, don't talk yourself out of it.
Yes.
[00:08:38] Speaker A: So thank you for mentioning that. Because one of the things I try to do when I put together a family album, really, is to balance the candid photos with the professional photos. And when I am really on top of my game and good with scheduling, I can schedule a professional shoot. And that ends up being the COVID of our family photo album for the year. So kind of like an essence cover and trying to decide which of these beautifully staged, quaffed photos is going to be our cover photo. And then inside the family album are the messy photos. And so I think it's a balance. So if we had a year where we didn't get together and do the professional shoot, we would still have the candidates. And so you mentioned having a tripod. What equipment should we have, especially as a single parent, because we only have one person to take the pictures.
[00:09:33] Speaker B: Sure. So equipment wise, you can really, really keep it simple. You can go online or to Joanne fabrics or anywhere and get a panel of fabric to either pin on the wall or put like on a, like a dowel rod, something hanging so that you can have a backdrop. They've got, for Christmas, for example, they've got backdrops with like Santa. You don't have to actually wrap gifts or set up a tree. It's just like a picture of it in the back. And most of them look pretty good. They can look really nice when they're photographed. And what's super awesome is that you don't need expensive lighting or expensive camera equipment. If you have a window, you have good lighting. And the way you take advantage of the window lighting is to look directly at the window. So you want to face in position, your body's towards the window so that the natural light is hitting you. And even if it's overcast or, or sunny, you can feel out where you should stand to have the light hit you just the right way. And you won't have to worry about any complicated lighting setups. So I would say background light and try to utilize your camera settings.
I know there are a million different types of pixel phones, Google phones, iPhones, all sorts of types that have different framing options in the settings. So you can take video while you're setting it up on a tripod, or you can take still photos with a timer and try to get a higher resolution by changing the settings in your camera.
[00:11:27] Speaker A: Okay, so let's just review what you said. So basic equipment is going to be a backdrop. Does it matter if it's a dark backdrop or a light backdrop? Just a piece of fabric that can hang nicely and give you a kind of complete background?
[00:11:43] Speaker B: Correct. And it doesn't matter. It depends on what you're wearing and if you want to pop off the background or if you want it to be like a color cohesive environment, that the availability to, like, stand in front of a white wall is someone's default when they think about taking photos in their home. And you just have to consider that there might be shadows, there might be overhead lighting, fluorescent lighting in the home that will be less flattering. So that's why I wouldn't just default to the white wall in your house, because you can utilize your furniture and your living room and the stairwell, just depending on where you can stand and face the window. So you might not need a backdrop, but you can use a backdrop or this living space itself.
[00:12:35] Speaker A: All right. And then face the window so you have the natural light going into your face. Okay, so we have a backdrop, you said a tripod, and then the natural light. Okay. And so then with that, you can set yourself up to be in the photo. Okay, you mentioned the timers, but what are two other settings that you can toggle on your phone to get the best shot? If you're taking indoor photos.
[00:12:57] Speaker B: If you're taking indoor photos and this might be controversial, I don't really know. I would always use the main camera, not the mirror front camera. I find that that is important because of the quality. The dimensions are different and the quality is different. Taking it from your main camera versus the mirror front camera.
[00:13:21] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:13:22] Speaker B: I would also recommend using a grid so that you can peek at the face of your camera. Make sure that everyone is composed the way that you want. There is a setting on the iPhone called photographic styles that you can play with. So this is more like a filter. So this is more like an aesthetic choice, but it doesn't change the quality of the photo as much. Yeah, those are, that's what I would recommend. So the main camera, not the mirror.
[00:13:56] Speaker A: Not the camera facing you. So. Right, okay, so turn the camera around. If you put it on the tripod so that you're looking at the back of the camera, the back of your phone. Okay.
And then you said the grid. Do we do anything with, like, the light balance? Like, what's all of that? Do you have to be like a photographer to play with those?
[00:14:17] Speaker B: Not necessarily so if you're playing with your phone and you are holding your phone like you regularly do, and you're texting and you open up your camera, you can tap your screen as soon as you open your camera, and a little square will appear. When that little square appears, it is going to help you focus on the primary object.
And if you tap in the center of that square, you'll see a little sun pop up. You can slide your finger up or down, and that will change the exposure, and that meets the brightness of the photo. So what happens? A lot of times, people are like, oh, my gosh, look at this great window. I'm going to stand in front of it with my back to the glass of the window, and then you're going to take a picture. But the reason why that never works is because of your exposure settings. So nine times out of ten on your phone, if you're trying to get that beautiful sunset behind you, you're going to have to play with that exposure, which is sliding your finger vertically once your primary subject is in focus.
[00:15:31] Speaker A: Okay. So that tells the camera what to focus the light on. Otherwise, the it. The camera gets confused.
[00:15:40] Speaker B: Well, the exposure will change the entire image. So not just the subject, but the square. When you first tap your screen, that will focus on the subject.
[00:15:51] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. Now, we are comfortable taking photos in our home. We have our tripod set up. Mom has gotten in the photo now. So SMCs will do a lot of events. They will invite a photographer. You get, like, a 30 minutes session, but you also are sometimes out, and you don't have a professional photographer. So what are some ways that mom can get in the pictures? For example, some of the things that I do to get in the picture is if I go to an amusement park. I purchased a picture package. So we went to Williamsburg, one of their amusement parks, some years ago, and I got the photo package. They have photo stations set up. So I would make sure that we got some photos at those photo stations because someone is paid to take our picture. Other things that I have gotten comfortable with is asking other people to take our picture. So what are some things that you would recommend for mom to get in the photo when we're out?
[00:16:48] Speaker B: Well, absolutely. I think that that's great that you brought up, that you ask people to take pictures for you if you're out and you want to capture that moment. And I think a way to initiate that conversation is to look for the mom that is trying to take a picture. So instead of just asking, hey, can you take a picture of me offer to take someone else's picture, and it's really easy. Most camera phones work the same, and you can say, oh, my gosh, get in there, mom. Let me help you out. And just kind of cheer for her. And most of the time, she will do the same for you. She'll be like, okay, your turn. And it's kind of like I see you and, like, a wink across the room when you see another mom, that's like, okay, I'm gonna make sure that this mom knows that she deserves to be in this picture as well. So that's what I do actively, is if I see.
If I see families, like dining or taking a selfie, I always step in and offer to take one, and then in return, I get my shot, too.
[00:17:54] Speaker A: Yes. Okay, so I've done that. And I know some of us are introverts, and so that that is a little bit harder, but I have definitely seen smcs do that. And my go to is usually what you said. If I see somebody trying to take their own picture, I will offer to take their picture. Okay, so we're good there. All right, so let's shift gears just a little bit into the difference between taking pictures on your phone and getting the professional pictures taken. So we're now at an age where we have people who are novice photographers, and they're like, I got this. But there is something real significant about having a professional take your photos. So let's talk about the times where you take your camera, but the times where you really want to invest in a professional photo session.
[00:18:43] Speaker B: So I think it's hard for moms, and I can speak from experience. I think it's hard for single moms that maybe financially, can't wrap their heads around, oh, my gosh, how am I going to pay for this? I'd rather just take them at home. And I think that that stops us from the experience.
And so, just like you said, investing in it means that there's an intention behind it, and you deserve something nice, and you deserve that time and that care in that moment with your family, pulling yourselves together to get this, to get this memory, and to get this keepsake. So I guess from, like, a human level, don't talk yourself out of it. There are all sorts of photography packages and quick mini sessions that are out there that you can do without breaking the bank and just investigate it. If you are a novice photographer, maybe do a trade day where you take pictures of someone in their family and then they take photos of you, but they are higher quality, and the reason why you should do that as well is taking a photo from an iPhone versus taking a photo from, like, a DL DSLR, a digital single lens camera, you can print it to different sizes. So if you're looking to gift someone a canvas or you want to print the baby space on a blanket, if you want those sorts of keepsakes, you'll want it to be captured with a higher resolution so that you can blow it up to whatever size. So I think that that's the biggest takeaway from investing in the higher quality photos, because Facebook, Instagram all of those social media sites, they completely distort the image. They, they minimize it to a tiny thumbnail, and it's hard to recover the images back just from downloading them from those sites. So you lose some of that quality when you're only sharing on social media.
[00:20:43] Speaker A: Okay, cool. Yeah. So even when the kids get pictures taken at school, I will get the smallest package, because, I mean, who needs 50 million pictures of your kid, right?
[00:20:53] Speaker B: I don't.
[00:20:55] Speaker A: When I first started out, I would get, like, you know, this package with, like, different poses and whatever. And then I just started just getting the whatever the smallest package is because, one, I want the professional photo because the kids. The kids will want them to share with their kids, like, each age and grade. And so I did my, I came up in a family of six, and so my parents could not afford that. But I do have some class photos that I cherish because I'm like, oh, there's me. So that's one gift that I give to my kids. So I get the smallest package, and then I have a select group of people who would care to see the progression of the kids through the years. So I give those and put those in Christmas cards. But, yes.
[00:21:39] Speaker B: Well, I remember when I was in fourth grade, my mom took me to the mall and we went to glamour shops and, like, mind you, I don't know if my mom purchased a package of my senior photos from, you know, the senior touch people, but when I was in fourth grade, we went to glamour shots, and you best believe she bought, like, all of them. And it's so funny because I still have them. I actually just, I just found one of my glamour shots from when I was little. And I was like, oh, my gosh, that was such a moment. Like, I remember that day she picked me up from school. I was tore up, my hair was all over. And she took me to the mall. We got all beautiful together, and I got my glamour shots taken, and that was just, that's just something that I won't ever forget. And maybe, you know, I would love to do that with my kids, and I'd love to. When you go on vacation and get the old timey photos, all of those things are memories, and it's just. It's just a really special way to, like, keep track of your adventures together.
[00:22:51] Speaker A: Yes, yes. So. So I do do that for my kids. And then, you know, for myself and the family, we do that. We'll try to do professional photos, but then also. Okay, so we end up with these professional photos. So I've had a couple taken, and they'll tell you to dress nice. So what are some tips and tricks? For one, what should you wear and then what times? Because I had a photographer that was real specific about the time for taking these outdoor photos. So what are some things that we want to be aware of when picking outfits, when picking locations for taking family photos.
[00:23:26] Speaker B: Yeah. So, okay, well, we'll start with. We'll start with what to wear.
It's very cute and very easy to coordinate with your family. So if you're wearing, like, a white button up and jeans, then that's fine. And it's a very simple thing. You all don't need, like, a matching pattern or anything. Too busy either. But what I would focus on is your undergarments as moms. Make sure you've got a good bra on. Make sure that things look and are as smooth as they want to be. Because with different lighting, with picking up the kids, with repositioning different poses, things kind of fall wherever they want to. And so undergarments have become more and more important to me over the last couple of years. For photos specifically. And check your jewelry. Make sure that your rings are facing the right way, your necklaces aren't twisted. So if you have that beautiful necklace with a little charm on it, make sure that that's what's showing at your, at the nape of your neck. These are just really tiny details that afterwards you look at the photos and you're like, ah, I missed that. Or like, why didn't they tell me? And it goes with, you know, checking your teeth for lipstick, making sure that the baby's breakfast isn't around their cheeks and on their face, and make sure everybody's got lotion on.
Those tiny little touches really matter, especially when you're paying for someone else to take photos of you. So that those are some things as far as, like, looks go. Make sure your shoes are together or at least wiped off so that they aren't super messy at the bottom of the photo. As far as location goes, think about the space and not thinking, oh, pictures would be good in front of this willow tree outside, for example. Yes. But if it's super sunny outside, those willow trees will be casting a bunch of shadows that are almost impossible to Photoshop out of your face. So you might have to reposition yourself and your family to not stand in front or under the tree the way that you envisioned it in your mind. So think about big trees, buildings, things like that that might be casting shadows on the face. Best weather overcast for outdoor photos, your photographer will thank you. You will thank you.
Any sort of overcast lighting outside. So even if it's gray and maybe a little bit chilly, it really diffuses the light of the sun, and it gives your skin this amazing kind of, like, airbrush look without complicated photoshopping afterwards. So diffused light is the best light. So that's location and what to wear poses. Google it. You can go down a Pinterest rabbit hole all day to think about what sort of photos look good or what sort of photos you like. And so, you know, what poses look right in my limited mind, I booked a wedding with a couple that I never met before, and I had a bunch of poses in my mind. And then I got there, and the bride was easily six inches taller than the, than the groom. But it took me, it caught me off guard at first because I had this plan in my mind. And so you have to be ready to know what works for you. What are your angles? What side do you want to sit on? How is your hair falling? Things like that. So, yeah.
[00:27:24] Speaker A: Okay, cool. All right, so now let's switch to the humanity of the photo shoots. Mom and the kids. So, I know we laughed at that princess Kate photo where she was, like, gritting her teeth, telling her son to get over here.
[00:27:39] Speaker B: Right?
[00:27:39] Speaker A: So we stay, like, always, focused on the kids, so much so that we don't notice that our face has tensed up. So what are some things you do as a photographer to help moms stay calm and let the kids be kids? Because we'd be like, don't you run over there. Oh, my gosh. Like, what are you doing? Right? And so what are some tips, tricks, and techniques that you do to keep both mom and kids sane and doing what they're supposed to do?
[00:28:06] Speaker B: Surrender. Surrender to the kids. They will win. So instead of you sweating out your hair, chasing a child across the field, kind of let them win a little bit. Get your photos first, maybe of you, you and the family. Dog or you and the oldest child that are cooperating. Whatever you've got to do, get what you can first. And don't allow yourself to be frustrated. It's just a moment. I do recommend being playful. So if you need to pick up the child, swing them around.
Do it. Any photographer that is worth paying has done this before and will be flexible with you. I just did a family shoot for this little lady who's two and a half, and her mom brought two dresses, two beautiful princess dresses. Did the little girl want to wear the dresses? Absolutely not. What did we do? We took pictures without the, without the dresses. And that was a mom's choice that, you know, I feel like if that were me, my mom would have been like, get in the dress and we would have eventually gotten there.
But just allow yourself to have some grace about it. Be playful, be light, have snacks on hand. Non messy snacks. Crumbs are easy, but, you know, maybe not gummy bears or popsicles or anything like that. That's going to make a mess. Stick with, like, graham crackers, no cheetos.
[00:29:37] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:29:39] Speaker B: Things like that. So have snacks on hand. Charge your iPad, charge the iPhone, do whatever you need to do.
I heard you, baby.
Do whatever you need to do in that sense. But it also might mean just rotating the kids. So if you have three kids, do one at a time in a rotation of who is into it and who is over it, and then just hold a conversation. I always end up proposing three pictures, and I speak to the little one that's not been interested in photos the entire day that's been falling out or rubbing his eyes, and I say, hey, all right, we're going to take three pictures and you get to look at them every time. And then it's just me and him. And if. If it's a bigger family, if there's too many people, I kind of kick everybody else out of the room and I say, hey, little man, come here. Just you and me, three pictures. So that even if it's not the big family photo together, at least the parents can walk away with, like, one good shot of the kid that wasn't into it.
[00:30:45] Speaker A: Oh, that's sweet.
[00:30:48] Speaker B: That's my. I did that last Saturday, two Saturdays ago, we had that, and I was like, all right, we can try to get everybody, and then you'll, you won't like the photo anyways because somebody is not interested. Or take the family photo missing the one that's falling out and then circle back later. But as the adults, just the adults, keep smiling. Parents stay ready for that photo all the time. Keep your eyes on, on the photographer. You look fantastic. And eventually the kids will fall into place as well. But I just continue to shoot my fingers constantly on the, on the shutter button the entire time because in the in between, I'm gonna get the one. And so I tend to overshoot, and I think that that's part of the game when it comes to family photography.
[00:31:41] Speaker A: Okay. All right. Okay. So now we're in the age of social media. We're in the age of content creation. I know that I've had professional photos get used in different media outlets. So what's the customary way to attribute a photo? That is being that you're submitting for a media outlet so that the photographer gets the credit. So you purchased the photo. Is it yours? Do you have to attribute the photographer? How does that work?
[00:32:12] Speaker B: So it depends on the publication.
However, it also depends on the photographer. So my photo handle, for example, is K Elaine photo. But my name is Carmen Elaine. So for me, I attribute my images as Carmen Elaine because that's my name, and I'm okay with that versus Kay Elaine photo.
So just ask your photographer what they suggest in that regard, and they'll be able to direct you the right way.
[00:32:49] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. I just usually said photo courtesy of whoever the photographer was. So, yeah. Okay. All right. So just wanted to get that out the way.
[00:32:58] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:32:59] Speaker A: Is there anything that we missed during this conversation that you think is important for solo parents to know, to understand about getting in the picture and capturing the moment?
[00:33:12] Speaker B: I think you mentioned it right at the top of this episode. Just do it. Just do it. And don't fuss. Because right now, I'm at an age where I'm begging my mother to let me take pictures of her because I want them. And it's not about her at that point.
It's not about us as the parents. It's about the children and the family that we leave behind, being able to hold on to those little moments and those pieces. So I think it's, you know, I think it's just really important to realize that it's not about us.
And it's not always for us. And it can be. It can be for us. You know, I. You can go get a solo shoot by yourself and get photos of yourself feeling good about you being, you know, being an amazing mama like that. That, too has its space and place and beauty. But as far as family photos, it's not really about us.
[00:34:10] Speaker A: Yes, mama, get in the photo, because I have some photos where I'm a hot mess with a scarf on. And I can tell you, my kids have looked at those photos, and they have never once said, mommy, why do you have that headscarf on? Why you have that rag on your head? They have never. They just see the love and that they're with their mama. And so. So, Carmen, so thank you for taking this time with me. Where can my listeners find you anytime?
[00:34:38] Speaker B: And thank you for having me. So you can follow me on Instagram at K Elaine photo. That's k e l a I n e photo. My website is kleenephoto.com, and I do have a podcast as well that you were so lucky. I was so lucky to have you on my podcast. And hopefully we'll be rolling out season two soon. But that is at thingsi wishinew pod, and that's on Instagram as well.
[00:35:12] Speaker A: Okay. And then in terms of where you take photos, where you accept clients, where can they find you? Do you have a studio?
[00:35:20] Speaker B: So I am located just outside of Detroit in Hazel Park, Michigan. And I travel, so I also do projects in Chicago. Last year, for Mother's Day, I actually did a session that was sponsored by Del Magay Mezcal at a bar, and we did high end portraits for all the queer parents. It was very cute. So I can come to where you are. I can come into your home and photograph you comfortably in your space or do have studio access as well.
[00:35:58] Speaker A: All right, well, thank you for. For coming on. Like I said, this has been a dream episode. It's been one year in the making. So thank you for your patience and thank you for showing up.
[00:36:10] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you so much. I am being summoned to get Graham crackers.
[00:36:16] Speaker A: Well, go get those graham crackers, and I'll talk to you soon.
Thanks for listening to start to finish motherhood with ayesha. If you want to keep the conversation going, follow start to finish motherhood on Instagram or email meishaartofinishmotherhood.com. if you love this episode, please share it with anyone who's thinking of becoming a single mother by choice, anyone who's already parenting as a single mother by choice and just looking for advice on navigating it all, or a friend or family member who's looking to support someone else's single mother by choice journey. Until next time. Bye now.
